Maxwell: First of all let's start with pastor. Thirty years ago when I taught leadership I would have said wrongly — there is so much I have learned and grown — I would have said thirty years ago that leaders like change and are out there paving the way and followers dislike change. That followers are the drag and the resistance to it. I no longer think that. I think most leaders dislike change as much as followers do, unless it's their idea. In fact I think when change does not occur in an organization or church it is not because the followers resist a change — it is because leaders resist a change.

Followers by and large have no influence and pretty much fall in line to what everyone else is going to do anyway. That's why they call them followers. So when change does not occur it's almost always sabotaged. There is a leader to sabotage the change, not a follower. Pastors do not need to worry about the people. The pastors need to have an honest date with themselves. When churches don't change it is not a follower problem, it's a leader problem almost always.

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Now that being said, I want to be very careful to say that I do not advocate or admire change in itself. I know a lot of people just want change because they get restless. I don't think that's a good change. I think growth, true legitimate growth necessitates change. You can't grow over a period of time without making major changes. So I think growth means change. I don't think that change means growth. Somebody says, "Well I'm making some changes," and I am saying, "That doesn't make it better." I know people who have made changes and got worse.

So let's not glorify change. Let's glorify growth. If growth occurs a person will change and what I have discovered is when growth occurs change is received much more positively. My challenge is not to change churches or change pastors; my challenge is to grow churches and grow pastors. If I truly get them on a growth pattern they'll have momentum to make the changes they need to have. Because remember this, to change without growth is to change without momentum. That is very difficult. It only takes a strong degree of discipline but you have so many nay sayers that it's much easier to grow and then make changes than it is to change to have growth. I think a lot of times you get the cart before the horse. I would tell pastors they're responsible for the change. But really what I want them to do is not change — what I really want them to do is grow and then change.

Preaching: You describe yourself as a communicator, and your writing and speaking reflects that you're an effective communicator. What counsel would you give to pastors to help them develop as communicators?

Maxwell: The first thing I'd say is that I did not come out of college to be a communicator. I came out of college for my age as a good preacher. I did not come out as a good communicator — I came out as a good forth teller, preacher. But I didn't connect with people. My definition of communication is very simple: the acid test of communicating is connection. You never communicate until you connect. And all of the great communicators — different styles, different mannerisms, personalities — only have one thin in common: they connect. When they speak to an audience there's a connection. Just as all people that are not good communicators have one thing in common: they don't connect. So the question for a person who wants to be a good communicator is: how do I connect with people?