I called these pastors up and said, "You don't know me but I really want to learn and I'll give you $100 for thirty minutes of your time." That was back in '72 when I made $14,000. I did that because I knew that there was no way they would ever give me an audience. I had to show them that I was going to be different than the average person that was passionate. Over the next three years I interviewed them. How does a young pastor get out of his limited thinking? They took me out of it. I exposed myself to a world that I did not know. I exposed myself to a world that I wasn't comfortable with. But I knew the only way for me to ever get big is to get away from that small-thinking pettiness and hang around with people who think big. They all have the same effect on me.
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People ask me often, "Well, what questions did you ask?" I had like five pages of questions and a tape recorder. I had more questions than I could ever ask in a half hour. I only had a half hour — I wanted it clean. What happened was not questions that I asked or answers that they gave — there was an empowerment that happened that day. When I went back out in that empty parking lot at that church, I lay my head against that steering wheel and I would bawl like a baby and say, "Oh God, if you can do that for him you can do that for me." And I was empowered.
In fact it is interesting — I can only remember one answer to any one question that I asked of all those people. I went down to Jacksonville, Florida and talked to Bob Grey. Our church building was full, and I asked Bob Grey if we should go to two services. We were packed out. We were so packed out we would put them in the balcony, then we would seat them on the steps going down the balcony, then we would fill the chairs clear out to the last door. When you dismiss the last people had to get out first. The Fire Marshall would have had a heyday. I asked Bob Grey if I should go to two services and he said, "Oh don't you do that Johnny. It would be a huge mistake." He said, "I have played pastor in two congregations." Which is terrible advice. Because of that I had to plateau for two years while I was building a new sanctuary. Terrible advice. The only question I have ever asked, the only answer I have ever received was terrible. Terrible answer.
But the value from all of them — including Bob Grey — is that I came out of there so empowered that it lifted me out of this small thinking, "can't be done" prison that I was in and very quickly. The first thing I noticed when I would go back to my church, when I would go back to my denomination was that I was no longer what these people were. I knew it was only an amount of time 'til I'd have to leave because there was no connection. So I would tell a pastor go talk to a visionary, go talk to a big thinker. They'll lift you out. They'll empower you out.
Preaching: One of the hot buttons for so many pastors is dealing with the whole issue of change. In the book you talk about the fact that reaching goals always involves change. That's a struggle for many pastors with churches that are resistant to change. How did you as a pastor get people within the church ready for change?